Ashley Stenger: This industry is changing every day. It's constant, and it's fun, and it's exciting. There's always an area that is coming up quickly to really dig your hands into. But I mean, I'm dumbfounded every time I talk to members and hear their path to success and what they're doing within their firms and how many balls they're juggling in the air.
Everyone's moving at such a quick pace, and that to me keeps things fun.
Megan Senese: You know, I was actually thinking something over the weekend. I'm like, "Yeah, I would love to know," as a business developer, as an LMAer for however many years when firms paid, and now we pay for ourselves. Can you just walk us through who they are, what they do, and then where do you come in? And then we'll talk about all the other questions. But I think that would be helpful.
Ashley Stenger: Yeah, absolutely. Well, SmithBucklin is a professional services company, and part of what they do is partner with associations to bring in that expertise in so many different industries. There's an association for everything. So, a lot of associations are standalone where they have their own staff; they employ everybody that works for them.
SmithBucklin comes in and places the right professionals and experts in the right places. I started my career with them in Chicago in 2014, and served with a couple of different associations before connecting with the Legal Marketing Association. So, the team is employed by SmithBucklin. We do have team members who sit full time on LMA, and then we have some who maybe devote 50% of their time, and some who are more fractional or project-specific.
But SmithBucklin is a fairly large company, over 500 employees, and two offices in DC and Chicago, which is great, because that's where most associations are headquartered. So, it makes a lot of sense. But I, of course, sit strictly in the LMA role here.
Jennifer Ramsey: Tell us a little bit about your background and how your path brought you to LMA.
Ashley Stenger: I'm a West Coast native, Jen. I'm from Northern California. I have a bit of a bouncing-around story. I went to college at the University of Montana, and it's my favorite place on earth. I would've loved to stay forever, but you can't...If you don't know exactly what you wanna do, you have to leave to figure it out, right?
So, I came to DC. There were lots of opportunities for a young person out of college, and I started at a standalone association in the healthcare field. It was at an association of oncologists. I then went on to the DC bar, so that was kind of my first foray into legal. I met my now-husband in DC. I'm a military spouse.
He's in the Marine Corps. We moved to Chicago, which is where I got connected with SmithBucklin, and then I started on the LMA team in 2019 and worked my way up. I sat in different roles, focused on membership, focused on regions, and then when our previous executive director stepped down, I served in the interim role and decided to give it a try and hope it works out, and here I am.
Megan Senese: Did you have any idea about legal marketing before you were exposed to it?
Ashley Stenger: I'm gonna say no. My stepmom is an attorney. She spent almost 50 years, I think 45, at Farella in San Francisco, and I spent a summer working there. So, I definitely had a basic understanding of the business side of a law firm, but I don't think I ever really connected business development and marketing to how client growth is happening and that sort of thing.
I knew the basics, you know? But then I really just brought in my association management experience and learned what it meant to be a legal marketer. I'm a person that asks a lot of questions. I'm not a studier per se. I'm more of a talker, and so I spent that first year really asking a lot of questions, listening to conversations, and it took me, I think, a full year as a member of the LMA team to kind of grasp it.
There's so much in common in the business side of a law firm and the association world. I mean, it's a client service role, so from that, I had that sort of perspective and understanding of how that works and relationship management and that sort of thing because it's so integral to what we do and working with the board, and it translates very well into what legal marketers face every day.
Megan Senese: Yeah, I mean, most of us had no idea, right? First I thought I was gonna do pharmaceutical sales, and then that didn't actually work out because I had all of my years of CVS pharmacy tech experience. Then after, I was like, "No, I don't wanna do that." I thought for sure I was going to do public relations, journalism, or advertising.
I really wanted to do advertising. And essentially, probably like a lot of legal marketers, the reason I fell into it is because they paid a lot more than everybody else was offering me. And so, the rest is history. And, and Jen, your dream was never legal marketing-
Jennifer Ramsey: No
Megan Senese: at the onset? No.
Jennifer Ramsey: I didn't know what it was until I met Amy Robaker. Shout out to her. I was actually running a nonprofit organization here in San Diego called the San Diego MIT Enterprise Forum. It was a 501(c)(3) that catered to the business community. We would do panel conversations with local businesses and the challenges that they were facing.
And the president just happened to be the director of client development at Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman. This is where Megan and I met. We didn't overlap, but we have KPMG in common. I did foray into professional services marketing, came through KPMG, and I was there for a little bit of time, and then the number one choice for Pillsbury didn't work out, so I slid in. That's the law firm I've been at for my career, and I was there for almost 20 years.
What surprised you most, just in general, about legal marketing and business development?
Ashley Stenger: Well, when I first came on, which was, I don't know, seven years ago, there was still this conversation happening about “how do we get a seat at the table?” or “how do we break through?”
A lot of advocacy conversations were happening, and I was so surprised by that. How could people not see the value, or who isn't seeing the value, and why? And that really surprised me, speaking with members on the board when I first started with LMA, who talked about the challenges they've had in their role and showed partners and firm leaders the importance and the value and how they're really driving growth.
So that just surprised me. I mean, in that day and age, that should be a no-brainer, right? You know, it's funny, I've told this story before, but last year was LMA's 40th anniversary, and I was going through some old papers that people had sent over and photos and things like that. And from the '80s, there was a list of who sat on the board, and they didn't usually have specific marketing titles.
It said “coordinator of special projects.” You just saw the evolution of the titles, and I think with that, the value that marketing and BD teams brought to the table. But I was just shocked to see that 40 years later, there was still that feeling in people's minds.
I think over the last seven years, I've seen that conversation shift, and I don't see our community speaking about ourselves in that way anymore, which is amazing. I love that. But that surprised me when I started, that there just seemed to be a lack of understanding within a firm of the importance of a marketer.
Megan Senese: I think it's firm-specific, though, too, right? And I think there's a disparity sometimes between how the business developer and the legal marketer see themselves. We know that we're adding value, but when you're relationship-focused, it takes a long time to prove that ROI.
Essentially, if you're in a firm that wants to see every dollar count, it can be hard and tricky sometimes to say, "Well, we did this program, and we feel like it was a success, but we can't actually equate any dollars to it." And so, if people are only looking at that, it becomes really hard.
But I also think it depends on the firm that you're at, too, right? I'm glad to hear that over the last seven years people have shifted more towards accelerating or elevating their roles at the table instead of just, “how do we get in the room?” Then it's, “how do you get to the table?”
And now it’s, “how can your voice be heard at the table?” It's each of these kinds of incremental steps. So, I feel like that's a positive change or step.
Jennifer Ramsey: I think LMA has a lot to do with that, too. So, kudos to you and the team. And a shout-out to Eric. I love Eric.
Ashley Stenger: Isn’t he great? He is a sparkling joy on the team. He brings a smile to my face whenever I see him.
I think you hit on it. Personally, meeting with the members, what surprised me most is how collaborative this community is and how our group of members are.
There's so much crossover between people's roles. They've worked together in different places or, you know, there's a lot of chess moving and people moving roles, and it's so collaborative, and people are willing to jump in and help. If you look at our LMA Facebook group or LinkedIn or any of our listservs, our shared interest groups, you see that constantly.
There isn't this level of competition. It's more like, the more the merrier, let's help each other. Help each other grow in our careers, which I thought was amazing.
Megan Senese: Ashley, you and I had talked about this. I remember in the very beginning stages of my career, I had a poo-poo about LMA. Like, LMA is not really helpful for you if you're a junior person, but not so much for a senior person. And then I had to step back from LMA because certain firms only allowed you to have one year of membership, so then you got one exposure, one conference.
You went to something, and then that was kind of it, and then I had taken a backseat. Rumors were like, "Well, it's very cliquey.” The same people get picked over and over and over again." But that was probably 10, 12 years ago. LMA has been a big part of Stage's business and how we go to market integrate into it, and I've seen a shift in the programming as well.
Is that something that you've seen change anecdotally, or was that something that the LMA tried to do? Was that something that you tried to do? Was that part of the plan as you've gotten more entrenched with LMA?
Ashley Stenger: I definitely have heard those conversations happening, and that people have those feelings, and it was very important to me from the beginning to put some effort into fixing that, and it was very important to the board as well.
There are probably some unseen barriers to the pathway for leadership at LMA, and so we wanted to unpack that a lot. We had a lot of conversations with members, with our different committees, nominating committees, specifically regions, on what we could do to improve access to leadership to make the volunteer experience easier, more enjoyable.
This should be fun, too, in some ways, you know. And how are we bringing those new voices in? There absolutely is a new generation of members and legal marketers that I've seen emerging as leaders from our locals and our regions over the last few years. So, how do we proactively bring them in?
And I think maybe that's perhaps what was missing in the past is being really intentional about reaching out to different audiences, and also being vocal about how everybody is welcome. We want all of these voices, and we wanna work together. And, you know, this year, a really big accomplishment that we did is revamping our entire nominating process.
So, becoming a member of the board used to be very heavily weighted on the interview and your application, and that's just not a holistic way of assessing somebody or learning about somebody, or creating an open experience. We moved to, over the course of probably six months, the board and I worked on a competency-based system for ranking potential board members.
We identified areas of priority, areas of expertise that would be an ideal board member, ideal representation of LMA. It was all aligned with our recently launched strategic plan, which we launched in July of 2025, and it was a much more holistic assessment of candidates. It was a totally different conversation in the interviews, and there were different aspects of the process that were ranked and weighed differently.
It wasn't just on, you know, an hour that you got to chat with somebody, because that's not representative of what they bring to the table. We had a whole communications plan behind it. We had almost 30 people submit for the LMA board, which to me, I just took as a measure that this is working and that people felt more seen and heard and could see themselves in leadership positions.
And then we also moved that down to the region level and local level as best we could. So, this is our first year of rolling that out. I think it's been successful, but that was a few years in the making of coming in and saying things like, "We gotta do something to make sure that all voices are heard, and that we're bringing new people into the fold."
Jennifer Ramsey: The onus is on us as legal marketers, right? The more you put into something, the more you get out of it. It's such a cliché thing to say. This is a shout-out to the legal marketers who will listen to this podcast. You know, getting involved at the local committee level is such an amazing place to start because it's super local.
I was telling Ashley this before we hit record, but I love my little SoCal committee.
Megan Senese: You have a good little group. Everyone was hugging each other and happy to see each other, and I was like, "Wow, this feels very California."
Jennifer Ramsey: You know what? We're gonna post this everywhere, but I just need to shout out my committee right now.
Denise Nix, Tiffany Christian, Michael Chen, John Patton, Samantha Lee, Danielle Little, and Sally Schmidt. A lot of it comes from the leadership at the local committee, too. Tiffany was our past chair, Denise is our current chair, and they're just amazing. Like you said, Ashley, I think it's fun.
We're down to business, yes, but we also have fun together. I make that call out to people listening. If they haven't gotten involved with LMA or are curious about it. Start at the local level. It's just such an easy place. Obviously, it's a no-brainer to start there, 'cause it's just right in your backyard.
There are socials, there's educational, there are so many places to enter in, and really all of us, as you said, are welcoming to the new members because we've all been there. We've all been there where you're like, "What the hell is legal marketing?
And what did I get myself into?"
Megan Senese: Right. I think that's important.
Ashley Stenger: I feel like I don't know anything, and everybody else knows all of the things, you know?
Megan Senese: Nobody knows. Yes, nobody knows all of the things. The more people we talk to, the more senior people, the more they're like, "I don't have all the answers."
And that is the way to approach it. Actually, Jen, that's a really good point to just close out the criticism, right? Is that everyone is responsible for themselves, so if you're in a group that doesn't feel welcoming, you can extend. Maybe you need to be more welcoming or, you know, vice versa, or find another group.
I would love to know: what does CEO mean? What is your official title?
Ashley Stenger: I'm LMA's chief executive officer. I do a little bit of everything.
Megan Senese: Says a true legal marketer.
Ashley Stenger: Yes. Exactly. Whatever anybody wants me to do, I'll do it. For the most part, I'm guiding the organization from a strategic perspective and making sure that everything that all of our team members, our board of directors, and all of our volunteers have our strategic plan and our strategic goals in the back of their minds, and that everything we're doing, we're working towards those.
Simply speaking, I'm trying to keep that on track. Of course, I’m responsible for our budget and making sure that we're operating responsibly. LMA is a business, and we're not a small one, you know? We have a large team of people that are providing ongoing support, so we have a board of 12 board members who are volunteers.
You've all sat in a volunteer position, and they have their own paid jobs, so we try to make it as easy for them as possible to be good, strategic leaders. We have nine regions that require support, operational support, and almost 50 local groups at this point. We're expanding globally as well. We have two new local groups that started in 2026: Middle East and Latin America. So, it really is just keeping the arms around everything that LMA is doing and making sure that the team is supported, that the board has information and data to make smart decisions, and that we're keeping our strategic plan at the front of everything we do.
Megan Senese: What are some of the strategic goals for the rest of 2026, but also into the new year of 2027?
Ashley Stenger: '27 is gonna be a huge year, and I'm excited. We have three main goals: elevating the voice of LMA, reinventing the member experience, and being a champion of DEI.
I'll start with reinventing the member experience because there are three big components to that. One is focusing on making sure our resources are more accessible and that navigating to them is easy, making the user experience better. We have a huge technology project underway right now.
We'll be launching a new website in late summer 2027. We have a technology committee that's working really closely with the board and the LMA team to make sure that's successful, and that will make what LMA has to offer easier for our members. In addition, it's growth, of course.
We have to continue to grow in order to be successful. We launched a region in 2021, Europe, and as I said, now we have two new global local groups. But we'll be rolling out some flexible pricing, especially for our international members, which has been a huge ask for a really long time. I'm gonna shout out to our Canadian members because I know they've been vocal about trying to make membership more accessible.
They have conversion rates and GST tax that they contend with that make it difficult, so making sure we're meeting them where they are and being inclusive in terms of access to people no matter where you're getting your information from or where you're located globally. Then we did a huge survey this year; I hope both of you took it, but we called it our Member Experience Survey.
Our member experience committee put it forward. We received almost 360 responses, which is about 16% of our membership. So, it was a decent response rate. We were excited about that. We held 21 focus groups of people at different-sized firms, vendors, business partners, longstanding members, new members, non-members, and we had a lot of data to share with our committee to put some recommendations forward.
We really wanted this year to be a listening year and make sure that the decisions that we are making and the goals in our plan are aligned with member needs, and that what we're doing is actually driving value. Those were three big parts of that first goal.
The second one, elevating the voice of LMA. We established two new committees, Career Impact and Industry Impact. The first one serves our members from a professional development and career development perspective, and the other makes sure that this line under LMA said, "The authority for legal marketing."
I know we don't really use that anymore, but still, that powerful notion that we are, you know? And making sure that the broader industry knows that we're working with media partners and putting more intentionality behind that aspect of LMA. We have a committee dedicated to doing that.
So, just making sure that we're the leaders when it comes to media marketing within the legal industry, and that the media and our external partners know that. And then being a champion of DEI, I mean, we're leaning in here. Maybe in a time that firms are having to pull back a bit, we aren't, and we're proud of that.
We're in the middle of putting an assessment together. We launched a survey to our members in 2021 about inclusion and belonging, and we're doing a benchmarking assessment this year, which is one of the main goals of our diversity, equity, and inclusion committee. You'll see that come out probably in Q4.
From that data, we'll be able to align our future goals moving forward in terms of DEI. Making sure we're walking the walk and being very transparent and honest about what our goals are, and that we're communicating. You've probably deleted so many emails, like you said, Megan, because we're hitting everybody over the head with it.
We haven't had as foundational or solid a strategic plan at least since I've been on the team. We had strategic direction, but nothing set in stone saying, "These are the three goals. These are the tactics and objectives to get there." And, as Rachel Shields Williams said, I'm just working the plan through 2027, 2028.
Megan Senese: That sounds like a lot of work, to come up with three priority areas. It sounds so simple, but we know it's not, right? It takes a long time to be able to drill it down into getting those three things. I think, perhaps, part of the reason why it feels different. It’s because of that listening tour.
I think that's a big piece, and I have at least been on the receiving end of people being like, "Hey, would you like to help us do certain things?" Right? I don't know if that's the consultant side. I have also been on the receiving end of people looking outward for other people's voices and being able to participate in that way.
I see all of those things. What makes you most excited for what's ahead?
Ashley Stenger: This industry is changing every day. The voices are changing quickly. The content that we're putting out, we have to constantly adapt and be flexible and be nimble, and make sure that we're really sharing the voice of our members out there, and we're serving them in the way that they need to be served in their careers and within their firms.
The conversations that our members are saying that they want to have mean that we're having those conversations as a team and as a board as well, and it's just like you're constantly learning. It's constant, and it's fun, and it's exciting. There's always an area that is coming up quickly to really dig your hands into.
And meeting so many people along the way, so many incredible professionals and experts in this field, I mean, I'm just dumbfounded every time I talk to members and hear their path to success, and hearing what they're doing within their firms, and how many balls they're juggling in the air.
Everyone's moving at such a quick pace, and that, to me, keeps things fun
Jennifer Ramsey: Let's talk about relationships, because relationships are near and dear to our heart, how there's such a similar emphasis on relationships in legal marketing and then in professional association management.
You talked a little bit about the emphasis that you put on relationships, the similarities that you see, your approach to them, and how relationships really are the currency of what we do here in legal marketing.
Ashley Stenger: I'll just take the annual leadership transition that LMA has.
We have a new president that comes in every year, and everybody has a different style. Legal marketers experience that all the time. You're working with different attorneys and different partners within your firm, and everybody has a different style, and you have to make sure that you're maintaining a good relationship and that you're speaking their language, right?
You have to adapt a little bit depending on personality. I try at the beginning of every term to get to know people that I'm gonna be working with closely on a personal level, not because I wanna get in and figure out how their brain works so I can move pieces around or anything like that.
There's nothing nefarious. I just really like to know how people operate, what motivates them, what they like to do in their personal life. And I think just having that personal connection is really important in maintaining and building strong relationships. That's very important to me.
I very much appreciate it when people take the time to ask questions and remember personal anecdotes you might drop here and there. But I really try to approach my LMA relationships on a personal level and remember that we're all human beings, and we're all here with the same goals. I like to think of everyone as my friends.
I truly feel that about the international board. There's huge camaraderie, and it really does feel like a big family, and I think that's kind of my style. I like to keep it light. I like to keep it friendly. I like to, but I like to make sure we're staying focused on the goals at hand.
To circle back, in terms of relationship management, I really like to take a personal approach and learn what makes people tick, while keeping my eyes on the priorities at hand, adapting how we get there based on different people's comfort level and what motivates them.
Jennifer Ramsey: You know, I'm West Region SoCal. Megan, my partner, is in New York, Northeast. So, if there are people earlier in their career who are contemplating getting involved with LMA but might be a little bit timid or not sure, and you're in one of our regions, reach out to us, and we'll go to an event with you.
Or we've got virtual events, too, and we'd love for you to be our guest. So, if you're in New York or SoCal, contact us, and we'll get you plugged into LMA.
Ashley Stenger: I feel the same way. Everyone, reach out to me, and I'll connect you with members. I will share quickly: we have a new board seat next year, the RLC-elect, Regional Leadership Committee Chair-Elect, and that person is gonna be focused strictly on building those local connections and helping our locals drive value.
It's a big lift at the local level. There are a lot of times where people come in and experience their first touch of membership. So, we'll have some extra support there too. But I agree. Any one of us can help you get connected.
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Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey are co-founders of stage, a women-owned business development and marketing boutique focused on relationships, revenue, and growth for law firms and lawyers. Connect with Megan and Jennifer on LinkedIn.
This is a transcript from their recent podcast.
